Our guest today is Hasnaeen Rizvi Rahman, founder and managing director of Astha IT, a software development company in Bangladesh. From his early fascination with chess and computers to building a thriving tech company, Hasnaeen's entrepreneurial journey is a testament to the power of conviction, perseverance, and clear vision.
In this conversation, Hasnaeen shares a raw and honest account of his path, including the challenges of starting a tech company in Bangladesh, his decision to leave his studies in Sweden to pursue his entrepreneurial dreams, navigating the early challenges of entrepreneurship, and his candid reflections on the mistakes and lessons learned along the way. We discuss his upbringing, his early passion for chess and reading, and how his interest in computers led him to become a self-taught programmer. He shares stories of his early entrepreneurial ventures, the founding of Astha IT, and maintaining a long-term vision while dealing with immediate obstacles.
The interview also explores his thoughts on building a company culture focused on technical excellence and employee empowerment, overcoming challenges, and his belief in the importance of playing one's role in the grand scheme of life. His perspective on finding purpose beyond business success and his ambitious vision to build a billion-dollar global brand from Bangladesh makes this a compelling story of determination and strategic thinking.
From humble beginnings as a curious child fascinated by books and chess to leading a thriving software company, Hasnaeen's story is both inspiring and relatable. The interview is packed with practical advice, inspiring anecdotes, and thought-provoking reflections, making it a must-read for anyone interested in entrepreneurship, technology, or simply in good work.
Please enjoy our conversation with Hasnaeen Rizvi Rahman.
Ruhul Kader: Thank you so much for agreeing to this interview. We can start by talking about your background, your upbringing, and any experiences from your early life that you think have shaped you as an individual.
Hasnaeen Rizvi Rahman: Thank you so much for doing this. I was born and raised in Dhaka in 1981, making me 43 years old now. Both my parents were service holders—my mother was a working woman from the beginning. Since both of my parents worked, I grew up mostly alone and had many imaginary companions as a child. I developed a voracious reading habit that has become a character trait. If you ever come to my house, you'll see my library with about two to three thousand books.
I attended Wills Little Flower School in Kakrail, an English medium school. In my family, there was a tradition of playing chess. My uncle Mansur Rahman was the first junior chess champion of Bangladesh, and my other uncle, Almasur Rahman, is one of the most famous chess coaches and trainers in Bangladesh.
Naturally, I got involved in chess from a young age. Being somewhat solitary, as my parents worked and I stayed alone reading books, I developed a fascination with intellectually challenging things—math, mysteries, science, and other geeky stuff, which I still maintain to some extent. Through this interest, I got into chess competitively. I participated in tournaments nationally and became the school runner-up in chess across Bangladesh in both 1989 and 1990. The champion was exceptionally skilled; I couldn't beat him, but I was content with second place. I continued participating in various tournaments throughout the nineties.
However, I had to quit chess before university because my parents disapproved. Like many parents of 80s kids, they believed anything outside of studies was a waste of time. They would say, "You're wasting time playing chess. Give it up." Eventually, I quit out of frustration and sadness.
In the mid-nineties, a life-changing event occurred that led me to my current path. Coming from a humble middle-class background where both parents were service holders, computers were a luxury item. Unlike today, where computers are ubiquitous, in 1994-97, they were both fancy and expensive.
Around 1996-97, I casually mentioned to my father that if I had a computer, I could learn various skills like typing and Excel. My mother immediately dismissed the idea, saying, "Impossible. Finish your studies first, then computer." However, the conversation stuck with my father, and in 1998, he surprised me with a computer - a primitive Cyrix M2 with a 4GB hard disk, 32 MB RAM, running Windows 95. It changed my life.
Given my love for mathematics and mystery, the computer became like a mystery box, an Aladdin's lamp to me. While many other kids with computers mostly played games or watched movies, I became curious about how computer programs worked. This was before Google, when search engines like Yahoo and AltaVista were primitive and content was limited. I bought QBasic books from Nilkhet and taught myself programming. It became an addiction, and I started learning one programming language after another, entirely self-taught.
In 2000, I sold my first software to a buying house through one of my uncles who worked there. He asked if I could build an accounting system for them. I spent six months developing the software in Visual Basic and gave a demo to the boss. While he was pleased with the result, when I submitted a bill for 100,000 Taka (reduced to 50,000 Taka after a 50% discount), he was outraged. He argued that similar software was available on CDs for 300 Taka. I explained that this was custom-built software requiring time, effort, and intelligence. After much negotiation, he paid me 20,000 Taka—my first income as a software engineer.
This event was life-changing for me. Afterward, I became more dedicated to learning software engineering, mostly through books. I had dreams of becoming a game programmer, though that didn't materialize. After completing my A Levels, I enrolled in Computer Science at North South University, beginning another chapter of my life.
I believe that life as a whole is like a canvas. On that massive, infinite canvas, we are all like individual strings. So if I cut your string from the canvas, it creates a dissonance, an imperfection, a flaw in the canvas. This means each of us has an important role to play. Everyone is important.
Ruhul: That's a fascinating story. I notice a connection between your fascination with software and chess. Chess is a highly intellectual game, and software engineering shares similar traits. When you could no longer play chess, it seems software and programming became a new outlet for your energy and creativity. Could you tell us about your chess experience and how it influenced your later life, particularly in building your company?
Hasnaeen: You're absolutely right. Two things shaped me pre-computer: chess and books. I actually rank books above chess, and I'm trying to instill these values in my daughter now.
Books cultivated two invaluable qualities that many children today miss because they don't read: curiosity and imagination. Reading allowed me to imagine characters and their worlds.
Whether it was Masud Rana or Sherlock Holmes, I learned about submarines, the South Pole, or espionage—it was enchanting. This knowledge and the pleasure it brought are incomparable.
Reading fostered my curiosity—I constantly questioned things, asking why and how. Meanwhile, chess enhanced my focus, concentration, and planning abilities.
I showed entrepreneurial tendencies from a young age, and I believe these influences helped me think calmly and strategically. I was also a good student, though not necessarily because I enjoyed studying. My parents had one requirement: stay in the top ten, and you can do whatever you want otherwise.
I consistently met this requirement with average study effort. Looking back, I realize that excellence becomes a habit. If you consistently achieve first place four or five times, it becomes part of your identity. You feel compelled to maintain it. Anything positive can become habitual.
This pattern continued at NSU, where I graduated Summa Cum Laude while doing intensive programming. My teachers still remember me when I visit NSU, where I now serve on the Advisory Board. They appreciated that I balanced programming with academic excellence.
This was partly possible because we had fewer distractions then—no Facebook, no Instagram, and dating was uncommon. I lived a rather geeky life focused on studying and programming. Today's youth face constant distractions from all directions. Society has changed, and things like dating have become normalized.
I stayed active in sports too, playing football and cricket, but I was careful not to waste time—something I now recognize as a good thing.
Ruhul: That's an interesting observation about excellence becoming a habit. How does one develop such habits to consistently perform well?
Hasnaeen: That's an excellent and timely question, especially given the prevalence of depression and frustration among young people today.
I believe the key to staying motivated is having a goal - any goal. It doesn't need to be profitable or glamorous. It could be as simple as becoming a poet, a politician, a police officer - anything. The specific goal matters less than having one.
For those of us who grew up in the 80s or earlier, life had fewer distractions. We lived purpose-driven lives, feeling we had to become something meaningful, and we pursued that actively.
Unfortunately, today's young generation, particularly those in school and college, face a different reality where life's conveniences and distractions abound.
You can do Foodpanda if you want, you can do Pathao if you want, you can go to resorts if you want, you can travel abroad if you want—these experiences we could only dream of are now readily available. We used to think that yes, we will achieve these things one day.
Let me share a personal example: I bought my first mobile phone with my own salary. I never dared ask my parents for one, though they probably would have obliged. I wanted to earn it myself. Today, I see my nephew, not yet 12, with an iPhone. He'll never experience the drive to earn one because he already has it.
To maintain motivation, you need purpose. When purpose drives life, anything becomes possible. The purpose doesn't need others' approval—only your own conviction that this is what you want in life.
Ruhul: That's profound. I want to return to your childhood for a moment. You mentioned getting your first computer in 1997 at a young age, and how being an only child shaped you. Tell us about your parents, your environment, and the lessons you learned from them.
Hasnaeen: Actually, I'm not an only child - I have a sister who's eight years younger than me. She came a little late. She's grown now, and my parents and sister live in the US. They immigrated in 2013. I stayed behind for two reasons: I was married, and my company was already established. I didn't want to close it and start over in America.
Both my parents are educated professionals. My mother began as a teacher before moving to the nonprofit sector. My father worked in non-profits from the start, particularly with donor agencies like USAID. My mother had her own NGO called Anirban, which was quite well-known before she sold it when moving to America.
Many of my values come from my parents. They emphasized education without spoiling me with affection. I apply similar principles with my daughter now—she gets what she wants, but never takes it for granted. Everything is tied to achievement.
My parents were generous but always connected gifts to rewards - if you achieve this, you'll get that. If you score 95 in math, you'll earn this. This reward-driven culture made me very competitive. I learned early that nothing in life is free - that was my first lesson from them. That you have to earn everything in life. You haven't become someone or we are not someone who gets things for free just by wanting them.
The second crucial lesson was honesty. They taught me to respect boundaries between my property and others'. This is partly why I avoid certain projects today - I can't associate with anything immoral or non-halal.
My parents emphasized education, honesty, and hard work. Their principle was simple: you get what you work for. If you work for 10, you get 10; if you work for 20, you get 20. They never spoiled me with affection. There are parents who give their children whatever they want. My parents were not like that. They gave me everything but I had to earn it. My first computer was a rare exception—a gift of pure love from my father.
Given my love for mathematics and mystery, the computer became like a mystery box, an Aladdin's lamp to me. While many other kids with computers mostly played games or watched movies, I became curious about how computer programs worked.
Ruhul: This partly explains your drive and habit of excellence. I want to go back to the time when you designed your first software. Tell us more about that story and the time. What were you doing at that time?
Hasnaeen: I was an A-level student at Mastermind, having completed my O-levels at Wills Little Flower. This was around 1999. I built that software in Visual Basic, putting in considerable effort to make it work.
After entering NSU, my commercial work paused due to academic pressure. During this time, I focused on game engines—building games, physics engines, and graphics engines. I found these fascinating and dreamed of working at EA Sports. I built AI from scratch and was a very hands-on programmer. The countless hours I spent coding during that period—coding all night long—have proven invaluable throughout my life.
Let me illustrate how this background helps me today. Our company is now 15 years old, and while I no longer handle technical matters directly, my deep understanding helps immensely during architecture and technical sessions. I can see and understand the technical aspects of every project.
This technical foundation helps me work effectively with our engineering team, who appreciate having a leader who understands their work. Since engineering is our core business, having happy engineers means we have a good, happy company.
Ruhul: You mentioned wanting to work at EA Sports during your NSU days, which partially answers my next question. But I'd like to explore further: When you were young, what did you want to do? What was your ambition? You were a very good student. You could have pursued academia, secured a prestigious job, or moved to America. How did you end up choosing entrepreneurship?
Hasnaeen: I experienced some internal conflict. I've always been entrepreneurial and independent-minded, following my own understanding and principles since childhood. I always thought I'd start a company someday. However, as a first-generation entrepreneur with no family background in business, I had no idea how to proceed.
In the 90s, the early days of my fascination with software, when news broke that Bill Gates had become the world's richest person through software, it challenged my assumptions about wealth creation. Traditionally, real estate moguls, oil barons, or arms dealers were the wealthiest. The idea that someone could achieve such success through software was revolutionary and inspiring. Though I dreamed of owning a software company someday, I lacked direction and guidance. Maybe this uncertainty led me to consider corporate careers at companies like Google or EA Sports. That I would become a big engineer first. Although this desire to do something like that came later.
I made two attempts at starting software companies while at NSU - around 2002 and 2004. The first was Andromeda Software, started with friends but without formal registration. It failed due to my inexperience, particularly in leadership and people management. We had a website and all. But I was naive, there was a lot of immaturity.
I tried again in 2004 with slightly more maturity, but learned that building businesses with friends is challenging. Personal dynamics often interfere, leading to conflicts. This second attempt also failed.
After graduating from North South in late 2004, I took my first job as a software engineer at Metatude, a Dutch offshore development company in Dhaka, starting at 15,000 Taka salary in 2005. I'm proud to say my technical interview success rate remains 100% - I've gotten every job I've interviewed for, including a lecturer position at Northern University that I interviewed for concurrently with Metatude.
After a year at Metatude, I joined Kaz Software, which had an incredible pool of talent—many became entrepreneurs or industry leaders later. Around my third year working, I faced peer pressure as friends pursued masters degrees abroad. They encouraged me to follow my EA Sports dream by studying overseas.
By then, I'd lost interest in further academic study and didn't want to take the GRE or TOEFL. Through research, I discovered Sweden didn't require these tests and offered tuition-free education. In 2007, I went to Sweden for my masters—a decision that became another life-changing moment, you'll realize why.
The experience in Sweden was challenging for several reasons. First, with eight years of software development experience since 1999, studying basic concepts like data structures again at university was frustrating. The masters program wasn't particularly advanced,just more focused coursework. I struggled with returning to assignments, lectures, and presentations. I became very depressed.
Financial pressure added to my stress. I'd been earning 65,000 Taka monthly in 2007—a significant amount then—and my family felt the loss of this income when I left for higher studies. The harsh Swedish cold and fasting during Ramadan in Nordic summer, with its 20-hour days, further complicated things. It was very difficult. With all these going on, I couldn't focus.
These challenges led to a mental breakdown, and I dropped out of Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg. Instead, I returned to what I loved—coding. I worked remotely in Sweden for various companies, earning enough to cover my expenses.
While doing this, Allah brought a tremendous opportunity to me. A Swedish company offered me $2,000 monthly to build some CRM products. I was overjoyed and thinking what I could do. Using what I call "Bangali buddhi" (Bengali ingenuity), I proposed to my employer completing the year-long project in six months if they'd let me work from Bangladesh.
The Swedish people, known for their trust and down-to-earth nature, agreed. They said, okay, go, let's see what magic you do. My "magic" was outsourcing I. returned to Bangladesh, hired two friends, and completed the project in just four months. When my impressed employer asked how I'd managed this, I explained the outsourcing approach and proposed starting a company to handle all their work. They agreed, and that's how Astha IT began in 2007.
I was naive about business then and could have negotiated better terms, but my conviction and passion drove me forward. I felt strongly about preserving and growing this opportunity. The following years, the business expanded organically from one client to another, from project to project, from one resource to another. Somehow it worked out. That's how our company evolved into what it is today.
Ruhul: I want to go back to get more details about your story. You went to Sweden to study. After a while, you decided that a master's degree wasn't for you, and you wanted to return to coding. How did you get your first job in Sweden? How did you meet these people and eventually establish an outsourcing partnership?
Hasnaeen: I got my first job through a freelancing portal. Back then, Upwork or oDesk didn't exist. The portal was getafreelancer.com, which later became freelancer.com. I used to take whatever work I could get from there. This project also came through that platform. We had a video meeting on Skype, as Zoom didn't exist then. They conducted my technical interview to assess my skills. I believe my technical abilities and communication skills earned their trust, and they gave me the work.
Ruhul: Before we talk about Astha IT, I want to ask about Kaz Software where you worked before your master's. You mentioned having brilliant colleagues there, many of whom later started their own companies. What was unique about Kaz and its culture that fostered this entrepreneurial spirit?
Hasnaeen: If it wasn't for Kaz Software, Astha wouldn't have happened. If I hadn't joined there, I might never have had the idea of starting a company, or if I did, it would have been very different and boring.
One of the great things about Kaz Software was its empowering environment. There was less governance and more affection. Everyone had the freedom to do what they wanted. We would party all night, code all night, go out to eat at midnight. The bonding they created was exceptional. They had an approach that aligned everyone in the same direction, which I'm trying to replicate to some extent in my company.
Let me highlight what makes some company cultures problematic. In many companies, you'll see people discussing politics or money—he gets this much salary, he gets this little salary, and so on. These conversations are detrimental to any culture. At Kaz Software, the leadership cultivated an environment where only tech was discussed. People would debate about optimal software algorithms and performance. Discussions centered around technical matters: someone rewriting Java Virtual Machine, comparing .NET with Node.js, leading to technical debates between different technology camps.
This technical focus shaped our conversations, resulting in unique kinds of geeky friendships among people that still exist today. People from my time, like Tapu Bhai, Masud Bhai of Orbitechs, and Cefalo's Rumi Bhai, still meet and chat.
Kaz Software undoubtedly had a profound impact on me. I learned that geeky people could create an excellent company environment, aspects of which I later incorporated into my company. Astha has gradually developed its own DNA and spirit. While we have moved quite far from there, the original principles were those: freedom, empowerment, and no bureaucracy. Fundamentally, there should be no bureaucracy in any tech company. I learned these things from Kaz.
Ruhul: I have multiple questions about culture. Since we are talking about culture, how do you curate such a culture? You mentioned values like empowering people, giving them autonomy, and creating a balance of responsibility and authority. You also talked about directing conversations within the organization. How do you manage this with a large team?
Hasnaeen: That's a wonderful question. It's challenging, especially in HR-intensive companies like ours. Creating cohesiveness in a 50-person company is easy, but when you grow to 150, 200, 300, or 500 people, it becomes significantly more challenging.
I have team members whom I've never met personally. I might see someone new walking around, but haven't had any interaction with them. What we're implementing is a top-down approach.
This means that I, being geeky myself, have instilled the same spirit in my four horsemen, my core leadership team. They've been instructed to treat their direct reports the same way. It's like recursion, rippling from the top down to the bottom.
This isn't without its challenges because not everyone shares the same level of enthusiasm, geekiness, or passion. Sometimes there's some dilution, but with constant monitoring, it becomes regulated and eventually becomes habitual. In the long term, you achieve the culture you want. This has to be implemented from the top, right from the beginning.
We also conduct various mentoring and tech sessions. We have a culture document that new joiners must read and sign. We've given it a semi-legal form, making it a formal requirement to maintain our company's unique atmosphere. That this is a company where you have to be funny, legally. We are putting in some things like that so that the culture doesn't get ruined.
Ruhul: Let's go back to 2007 when you returned to Bangladesh. You hired two people, your friends, before formally registering your company in 2008. What was your vision? Were you thinking of building a company that would last for 15-50 years and grow to a certain size? Did you envision building a global software company? What was your thesis and thinking?
Hasnaeen: I wasn't thinking about any of that. My goal was to build a company like Kaz Software. My benchmark was to create a happy company of 20-30 people where everyone enjoyed their work, produced high-quality output, and worked with intellectually rigorous people.
However, this limited vision backfired later. I made three significant mistakes as an entrepreneur. If I hadn't made these mistakes, we could have become a 1000-2000 employee company today.
The first mistake was not adopting the right role model. My role model at that time was Kaz Software. Kaz was an excellent company. It was not a bad thing to adopt Kaz as a role model. While Kaz was an excellent company, if my role model had been Wipro, we could have achieved at least 25% of their scale, which would still be huge. I realized later that a company needs growth factors, matrices, and business principles, which we lacked then. We were doing excellent work, delivering high-quality products, but the company wasn't growing. We were stuck at 20-30 people partly because we didn't have the right kind of role model.
The second mistake was undermining the business aspects due to my technical background. I was biased towards tech and took the business side of things rather lightly. I didn't understand that a business needs to sell and maintain healthy profit margins—5% won't suffice; you need 20% margins. It took me a long time to break free from that coding mindset.
The third mistake was not doing enough networking again due to my technical background. Though many people know me in the Bangladesh industry now, I was very much behind-the-scenes earlier. Astha's marketing and branding were quite bland. I used to be a geeky person, focusing on work and overlooking everything else,
These three mistakes—insufficient networking, poor business understanding, and lack of appropriate goals—significantly slowed our growth in the early days.
However, once we identified these issues, the change was dramatic. In 2018, Astha had 40 employees. In five years, we grew to 200. It took us ten years to go from zero to 40 people, but only five years to go from 40 to 200 after we identified and addressed our problems. We could achieve this growth because once we identified these mistakes, we decided to fix them.
Ruhul: That’s fascinating. I would like to go deeper into the first 10 years of Astha—the way you did things in those 10 years and then do the same for the next five years. Let’s start with the first 10 years. You started in 2007 with a team of three people. What were you doing as a company? Give us a sense of the company at that time.
Hasnaeen: From the beginning, we worked in outsourcing, like Brain Station, Cefalo, or Sellies. Our company was/is exactly the same. We actually build software for other people. We don't have any products of our own. We are a solution provider or an engineering service provider. We were that in the beginning, and we still are.
The difference is that we had problems with business acumen back then. While we were just a bunch of coders working together in those days, we are a proper business now. We have a business team, a sales team, a marketing team, a pre-sales team, a business analysis team, and a client success team. I learned that a company needs a client success team only four or five years ago.
At one point, we came to see that some of our contemporary companies were growing consistently. For example, Brain Station, my friend Mizan's company, which started in 2006, was growing steadily. We started in 2008—they are/were just two years older than us. We could see their steady growth from the beginning.
I took a pause to give it some thought—Brain Station is just two years older than us, but they are a 200-person team, and we have 40 people. It hit me that we must be doing something wrong. Around this time, I also came to realize that being small has risks. What does small mean? Fewer clients, less revenue. If 10 people leave today, or if two clients leave today, you will suffer. But if you have 50 clients, you won't suffer if two clients leave. You can keep going.
I learned the business during this period, alhamdulillah. But it was my journey; everyone's journey is different.
Ruhul: Building a 40-person company isn't easy. Many people struggle with that. Could you share more about this journey, the challenges you faced, decisions you made, and strategies that helped you grow from a team of two/three to forty?
Hasnaeen: The first challenge was being fully self-funded. No one ever invested in us. We were completely bootstrapped, growing organically by accumulating one taka at a time. Capital was always a constraint, preventing us from taking aggressive initiatives.
For instance, if you want to aggressively sell in the North American market, you need a sales team that will take three to six months to show results. You need to be able to invest during this period without immediate revenue. We couldn't do that. Cash was our primary limitation, which I couldn't solve then, though we managed to grow from our earnings.
The second challenge was strategy. I always advise entrepreneurs to go deep. Even if you're not from a technical background and have a CTO, you can't delegate everything. You have to get your hands dirty at some level. You need to understand the basics of your tech stack, how productivity is measured, and recognize when projects are taking more resources or time than they should. Being blind to these aspects can harm the company.
As the owner, you have a unique perspective that no one else will have, regardless of how well you compensate them.
Our growth from 2 to 40 people was possible partly because I understood the technology aspect thoroughly. I had no weaknesses in delivery. If someone asked me to build specific software, I could deliver it. This was one of our company's strengths.
The third factor is that I've always valued people. We're one of the few companies in Bangladesh that provides six meals daily: breakfast, mid-morning fruits, lunch, post-lunch dessert, evening snacks, and dinner for those working late. All free.
We celebrate all holidays, and if a government holiday falls on a weekend, we give it on Sunday. We've done this from the beginning because, as an entrepreneur, my primary allegiance is to my team. Some entrepreneurs are client-centric, but to me, my team is everything. I'd rather have challenging projects or difficult client relationships than problems with my team members. They're my family, my responsibility.
There were times when clients left, but I didn't reduce the team size or fire anyone. I paid salaries from my own pocket for three to six months. Most companies would downsize in such situations, which is probably the wiser choice. I might be unwise, but my team members appreciate this approach, which has helped tremendously. They don't want to leave. Everyone has their style and strategy. This is mine.
Ruhul: How did your business development and strategy work during those early days?
Hasnaeen: You're getting to a good point. There was nothing at that time. Until 2016, I was the only person on our business team. I handled everything myself—nurturing leads from referrals, friends, or any source, and closing deals. Now, of course, we have a much larger setup with a sales team of more than 10 people.
Ruhul: How was the company structured then? Bootstrapped companies usually face a chicken-and-egg problem. When you have lots of work and your team is struggling, the right move would be to invest and expand. But there's uncertainty about future work. How did you approach these challenges?
Hasnaeen: There was no structure initially. I have a personality trait—I'm naturally stress-free. This is a built-in, natural thing in me. I never worry or give into tension. Let me share a story that illustrates how I handle stress.
In 2011, when the company was three years old, we had only one client who employed about 15 of our resources. One evening during Ramadan, I went to an iftar with a friend in Dhaka. Our client was based in Florida, and they usually didn't email in the morning. During iftar, I received an unusual email from Ryan, their MD.
The email said, "Hi Rez, they used to call me Rez, I have some bad news for you. Our company has been sold, and the new owner won't outsource. Starting next month, we won't be able to pay the salary of 15 people."
Imagine having 15 people in your three-year-old company, and suddenly your only client, who's paying all the salaries, says they're leaving next month. It was catastrophic. Many would panic—my father, for instance, who can't handle stress well, would have had a breakdown.
However, I remained calm. I chilled. Totally chilled. I finished my iftar, chatted with people, walked around, and came home at night. I sat down and calmly replied to the email. The next day, I told everyone, "We've lost our only client, but trust me, I'll find work for you somehow."
For the next two months, I reached out to almost 1,000 people, asking if they needed programmers or had any work. I turned everything upside down for the next two months. I didn't fire anyone and retained the entire team.
This ability to stay calm during turmoil is part of my personality. I do get slightly anxious now as I'm getting older but I can still handle significant challenges easily. I believe everything happens according to Allah's will. I try my best and accept the outcome.
Ruhul: How did you recover from that crisis?
Hasnaeen: I contacted nearly everyone in my network, asking if they needed programmers or any other services. While we couldn't find a single client to replace all 15 positions, we eventually secured four or five projects and gradually recovered.
Ruhul: That must have been a wake-up call about diversification. Tell us more about that period.
Hasnaeen: Yes, I realized what a terrible mistake I'd made by relying on a single client. I was content with one client, never thinking they would leave. I assumed our relationship was permanent because they were very happy. After this incident, I understood the need to diversify both in terms of clients and countries. We were only in America then, but afterward, I expanded to Sweden, Australia, and was knocking on every possible door. I had to hustle extensively, asking everyone if they needed anything.
I don't like to quit. The only failure I'll ever accept is death, which is decreed by Allah. Otherwise, I never quit what I'm doing. I always believe there must be a way; we just need to find it. This belief, though perhaps emotional and not traditionally business-minded, helps me tremendously. I haven't become a purely numbers-driven entrepreneur yet. I still believe things are possible and happen for a reason. This conviction has helped me to ride out many crises.
Ruhul: How did you develop this mental calmness in facing challenges? Is it cultivated or natural?
Hasnaeen: It's partly inherited—I take after my mother, who is very organized, calm, and quiet. Part of it developed through my experiences. I think my solitary childhood shaped me into a survivor. Being alone at home as a six or seven-year-old while my parents worked, with no household help, just reading by myself—that experience shapes you differently than growing up in a joint family. That solitude and self-reliance may have helped me mature earlier.
Ruhul: You overcame that challenge and eventually won the best outsourcing company award from BASIS. Tell us about this journey from crisis to recognition.
Hasnaeen: By 2013, we had recovered from the 2011 crisis and were doing well again. People from BASIS would visit our office. Fahim Bhai, the founder of bdjobs.com and then-president of BASIS, was very supportive. He would say, "You're so young and have already achieved so much." I started the company at 25 in 2008, and was 30 then. He encouraged me to submit our numbers for the BASIS program, which led to the award. That's when I became aware of such recognition opportunities.
I was so focused on technology and my own world that I was oblivious to the industry network. I didn't have industry friends or connections. After that, I started submitting every year. BASIS gives these awards based on revenue, growth, employee count, and other metrics.
Ruhul: Can you talk about any particular strategy or initiative that helped achieve this growth at that time?
Hasnaeen: Our growth was linear at that time. We weren't growing exponentially. My biggest challenge was being a one-man army. I was the CTO, the Chief Business Officer, the Chief Executive Officer—everything. I didn't have a business coach or a mentor, which was why my growth had been very linear or normal, I would say. When I actually started learning, when I started studying how Indian companies got so big, how BrainStation became a 500-person company, I realized that you can't run a company alone. Then I started hiring senior team members for the CXO positions and bringing in partners. When I gradually started segregating the responsibilities, the company automatically started growing.
Ruhul: When more people started working for business development, you got more time to think about strategy. Coming to Astha today, can you please give us an overview of the company? What do you do? What are your products and services?
Hasnaeen: Astha currently has three products, or you could say three service verticals: staff augmentation, custom development, and cloud services. We don't have any software products, meaning no ERP or CMS or anything like that. Our services are productized. The three service lines are:
Staff augmentation: This can be remote or on-premise. For instance, Banglalink is our partner where we provide on-premises resources. An Australian company takes about 30-40 people from us. We provide resources and add a margin and logistics on top of the salary.
Custom software development services: We provide customer software development services. Startups, enterprises, and entrepreneurs come to us saying, "I need to build this kind of product. Will you build it for me end-to-end?" When I suggest, "No, I'll give you the resources. You manage it," they say, "No, I don't understand this stuff, you build it for me end-to-end." That's not staff augmentation. That's the custom service development model, where we manage everything—from writing the SRS to coding to testing to maintenance.
Third, cloud services: We're cloud-focused now. There's a lot of cloud work available these days. Some clients used legacy or on-prem systems and now want to move to the cloud, or they're on Azure and want to go to AWS, or they're on AWS and want to go to Huawei. We provide these kinds of cloud services, either project-based or resource-based.
Eighty percent of our clients are foreign, and twenty percent are local. We work with all kinds of foreign clients—from one-man startups to $10 billion enterprises. However, in Bangladesh, we only work with enterprise clients because many small companies in Bangladesh struggle to keep commitments. In Bangladesh, we work with enterprise clients like Transcom, BAT, Banglalink, ACI, Apex, etc.
Ruhul: Outsourcing may appear simple from the outside, but it's not—it's a huge coordination problem. There are many challenges involved. Can you tell us more about the business model—how the pricing works, how you coordinate everything, the moving parts, any uniformity of the model which we miss from the outside?
Hasnaeen: I'll share how our different verticals work. The three verticals I mentioned each have a separate sales team. The one who deals with local clients doesn't deal with foreign clients. You can call them strategic heads.
These strategic divisions are led by different people. There's a CTO whose job is to ensure project delivery. He doesn't deal with sales. There's a Business Analysis Head whose job is pre-sales. Suppose you're bringing in a lead—you're not technical, but you have to talk to your client in technical terms, otherwise they won't understand and wouldn't take you seriously. Sales in our line are 50% technical, 50% non-technical. Business analysis head addresses this challenge.
The mistake we used to make before was that we didn't have any business-savvy people. Everyone was technical. The problem with that is that business people are a bit salesy, they know the tricks, while techies are very robotic. They go straight to the point, which isn't always good. Now, we have business people and pre-sales technical people. We have a combination of the two in each strategic division. Each division is independent.
I don't focus a lot on any particular line. My job is to make sure the machine runs smoothly. I come in every day and see if everyone is working properly. That's all. Of course, I attend sales meetings if it's a big project. Other than that, I only ensure everyone is coming on time and doing their job.
We have a business playbook and a sales playbook. Everything is automated. We have a CRM. We have QuickBooks for accounting. Nothing is manual. When a lead comes in, it goes into our CRM. We nurture it. We monitor it at every stage. We review how many leads came in this month, how many leads closed, how many leads dropped, why they dropped. We do a retrospective to see where there was no match. We've developed the science behind the process. However, this didn't happen overnight. We've learned these things over the years by making mistakes and failing.
You'll find ready-made playbooks if you Google "how to set up a sales funnel." Everything is there. However, those don't fit perfectly with every company. You have to custom-tailor it for your company.
Ruhul: These playbooks and frameworks are fascinating. I want to get a bit deeper into this. Can you share any examples or stories where you took a product to market and grew it to a certain size using specific strategies and activities?
Hasnaeen: Initially, I wasn't interested in doing business in the Bangladesh market. It seemed to me that Bangladeshi clients haggle a lot and don't pay on time, which is true. But there's a lot of work in Bangladesh. You'll get the money a little late, but you'll get it. If you do business the right way, there's a huge opportunity. I think the opportunity is as big as outsourcing.
We didn't do any work in Bangladesh until 2017. One of my partners, Tasnuva, joined me that year. She comes from a business background and is a very prominent corporate figure in Bangladesh. She convinced me that we should start working in Bangladesh. She showed me there was work here and things would happen if we just started. She introduced me to various big companies, saying, "Let's see what's there. Astha IT has made a good name in outsourcing, but no one in Bangladesh knows about it. It should be known. If people don't know you, resources won't want to come. Branding has power. If nothing else happens, people will come to know you. It will be a passive benefit for you.”
That's how we got our first job with Transcom. I sold it myself, you could say with my personal charisma. We didn't have any track record in Bangladesh at that time, while our competitors did. I went in and pitched myself. There was a lot of showmanship and persuasion. I poured everything I had into it, and it worked. If you go to transcomdigital.com, the biggest electronics e-commerce site in Bangladesh, it's built by us.
That changed everything. After we got that job, we got the Apex project. Then we got the Banglalink project. Then we got the BAT job. Our clients started referring us to others. More than our own sales efforts, we're getting a lot of referrals. That's the power of branding. Branding creates your pulling power.
Sales are of two types: push and pull. Push is your cold call, your cold outreach—you go around and knock on doors to sell. This is okay and nice. However, the best type of sale is when you sell while you sleep. Auto sales. That is pull sales. You pull like a magnet. It only happens when you have a really good brand.
The playing field is still open in Bangladesh. There is no market leader. There is no single company that people are crazy about working with. It's still an open field, and everyone has the same opportunity to become that ultimate brand icon. We realized this very late, but alhamdulillah, our branding game is going very well.
If you go to our social media, you'll see that each of our posts gets 70-80 likes on LinkedIn and Facebook. When we do competitor analysis, we see that we're in the top five in social media engagement or brand value growth. We're doing increasingly better. We might focus on brand development in the foreign market in the future, which is why we've taken an initiative. We're opening a company in America too.
I named our company Astha because I'm patriotic. I thought if Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Maruti—these Japanese names that sound gibberish to others—could become global brands, Astha IT would become a global brand one day. Foreigners wouldn't understand the name, but they would understand that it's a legendary IT company.
The problem is that foreigners, especially Europeans or Americans, have trouble pronouncing Astha IT. That's why we named our American company A-IT, an abbreviated form of Astha IT. Now it's working like magic. Everyone is saying that A-IT is doing very well.
Our future plan is to turn Astha IT into a global brand as A-IT. A-IT is going to be the first billion-dollar company out of Bangladesh, headquartered maybe in the US or Europe. Take Wipro or Infosys, for example—they originated from India, but their headquarters are in California. That's the trick; you have to globalize.
When I sell as a Bangladeshi company and say, "You know what, we are very good," they ask, "Where are you headquartered?" When I say Bangladesh, the trust immediately drops to zero. Nobody takes Bangladesh seriously. It's a sad truth. But now, when I say, "You know what, A-IT is a US-based company with an offshore center in Bangladesh," everyone gets happy. They're happy because it's a US company, so it's legally protected. They can sue me if they want. And we have offshore operations, which makes us cheap. It's the best of both worlds.
It took us a long time to learn and implement these strategies. It took a ton of effort. It's also a life choice. I need to travel a lot. My parents live in the US. My company is in America. It's a lot of travel, and I have accepted this life choice. That's the sacrifice I have to make to grow my company. If I had said, "No, I will stay put in Bangladesh, I won't go anywhere," things wouldn't happen.
In the last three years, we have grown by 150 people, which is phenomenal in Bangladesh. This happened because of all these strategic moves.
Another strategic move that has benefited us is partnerships with influential people. For example, if I have a friend who is a vice president at Google, I partner with them, whether in exchange for money or for free. I know their value. They can bring me a lot of work.
Many entrepreneurs in Bangladesh don't think so openly. They think, "I will never give away part of my company." I have given away parts of my company to many people for free. I haven't received any instant benefit. However, I have inevitably received benefits after six months or a year. When you associate with influential people, they will bring things in their own self-interest. This concept of opening up—like I would rather have one percent of a ten-billion-dollar company than a hundred percent of a one-million-dollar company—is important. One percent of ten billion is way bigger than a hundred percent of one million. This realization came to me at some point, and I started to bring in important partners who have played an important role in our growth over the last five years. Today, while I don't own 100% shares in the company, I have gained a lot, alhamdulillah. I teach other founders that you can't do anything alone. You can go up to a level alone, but with a good team, partners, and affiliates, you will go miles.
Ruhul: Another important aspect of business is capital. Managing capital is also a skill. How did you solve the problem of capital?
Hasnaeen: Well, as I said, we are totally self-funded. We have grown by earning and reinvesting. But I am not good at managing accounts. That's one of my weaknesses. I had good accountants and people with a finance background as employees right from the beginning. For example, our current finance head who handles our finances is a chartered accountant.
You have to understand where your weaknesses are. My weakness is accounts or cash management. I needed help from people, and I managed that help.
On the other hand, I'm good at selling. I'm good at delivery. I even handled HR at one point, but now I don't handle HR anymore. HR is also important in our company. Our job is to recruit people. We have a large HR team. So, you have to understand your limitations and operate accordingly.
Ruhul: You talked a bit about culture. Since we are talking about HR, can you tell us more about your culture?
Hasnaeen: The goal is to have a stress-free environment. We do whatever it takes to eliminate stress. We have three or four tournaments a year. We eat out every week. We have a big party once a month. We have a company-paid tour once a year, a very lavish one. We allow the team to indulge. We do what needs to be done to eliminate stress.
Besides, we have some good HR policies. We have maternity leave, paternity leave, yearly bonuses, gratuity bonuses, and medical coverage.
The machines in our industry are actually people. If we treat our people badly, treat them like employees in other industries, it's not going to work. You have to pamper them. To be honest, I pamper my team. We make sure they get everything they need.
When it comes to salaries, alhamdulillah, we are one of the top-paying employers. I don't know whether we are absolutely top-paying, but we are among the top-paying employers. For example, we give freshers 40-45 thousand taka. But our jumps are very high. You will see that a person with two years of experience is getting 65 or 70 thousand taka. We try to retain talented people by doing these things. And those who are not talented, who are underperforming, they slowly realize, "Oh, I am not doing well," and they either level up or drop out.
Ruhul: Outsourcing is a growing industry, and it's increasingly becoming important for our economy. You also mentioned that the local market is quite big and growing. Tell us about your observations about the market. Where do you see it going? Give us an understanding of the outsourcing industry.
Hasnaeen: The software outsourcing industry globally is a multi-trillion dollar market. The opportunity is very big. Relative to that, Bangladesh's software industry is not doing very well globally. We should be doing much better. Our young people speak English. They are smart, presentable. Their coding isn't bad either. But because of a lack of coordination and organization, we are falling behind many countries.
Take Vietnam, for example. Vietnam, out of nowhere, in the last 5-6 years, has pushed Bangladesh down to third place or lower. Even though they don't speak English as well, their revenue, traction, and business acquisition are excellent. The reason is coordinated effort. Their government and the public and private sectors are carrying out a nice, coordinated marketing and country branding campaign that "Vietnam means tech."
The Philippines is considered the call center capital of the world. Their government and private sector promote that any BPO should come to the Philippines. Bangladesh lacks this coordination. This lack of cohesion has been very detrimental for us. This is why we haven't been able to grow as much as we could have.
The government talks about a five-billion dollar target, sometimes a 20-billion dollar target. These numbers are meaningless. Five-billion dollars can come from a single project. If Amazon, or Elon Musk, or any big agency wants, they can do a 10-billion dollar strategic partnership with Bangladesh. It's absolutely nothing. In fact, it's shameful that our entire industry talks about five-billion dollars. This is because our branding isn't good.
Despite these limitations, companies like Brain Station, SELISE, DataSoft, BJIT, Astha IT, Vivasoft, Enosis—we are trying. Whatever results we are getting are from our own efforts. However, with comprehensive efforts from all corners, we could have done much more.
I tell my colleagues, the entrepreneurs, "Look, you have to do content marketing. Google should be filled with talks of Bangladesh."
Today, when you search "top five Asian outsourcing countries," Bangladesh isn't there. I can tell you from memory whose names are there: India, China, Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines. Bangladesh isn't even in the top seven. Then comes Sri Lanka, Pakistan. Pakistan is doing well in tech now. We never even considered them before. It's sad but true.
The reason for this is branding. This is why our industry has fallen behind.
Another issue is brain drain. Talented people, especially the experienced ones, are leaving the country. In Bangladesh, you couldn't find 20 tech leaders aged 40-45 or those with 20-25 years of experience. Many of them have gone to Canada, America, Europe, Australia, etc. As a result, the industry has become without guardians. These are the ones who should run the industry. Unfortunately, there are limited opportunities in the country for these people and there are many other problems.
Considering everything, I'm not as optimistic as I could have been. But I still don't want to give up. I don't like quitting. I still sit with my colleagues and make plans. To be honest, nothing is more powerful than unity. If we remain divided, we will stay divided. If we are united, our country will progress. As a country, we are actually very divided. Everywhere I see division. If there is division, we cannot rule. Now, who would solve this challenge is a difficult question.
Ruhul: To close our Astha-related discussion, what are your priorities for the company in the next 2-3-5 years? You briefly mentioned your long-term goals.
Hasnaeen: Our five-year plan is public. Everyone knows it because I publicize it. In five years, I want to be a 1,000-person company. We want to have five continental headquarters. Currently, our office is 10,000 square feet; we want to have 50,000 square feet of global offices. Additionally, we want to be listed on NASDAQ, and we are already working on it. We want to be the first software company from Bangladesh to be listed on NASDAQ.
Ruhul: What are some major risks and challenges for the company?
Hasnaeen: The primary risk is that we're getting work but not enough resources. So I'm having to hire teams from abroad now. My dream was to have all 1,000 people in Bangladesh. But from what I understand, it's going to be tough.
We're planning to have a team in Vietnam. We already have a team in India. This is partly because of the brain drain, as I mentioned. Talented people are leaving. If the role models leave, it's a problem. The young ones think, "No, I will work at Google, I will go abroad and work." That's a challenge.
Another challenge, which is an old one and I don't like to repeat the same thing, is this branding issue. Bangladesh still hasn't become a tech brand. If you go abroad and tell someone at a conference, "I am from Bangladesh," everyone will say, "Oh, Bangladesh... When was the last time you had a storm?" But if you talk about India, everyone will say, "Oh, Bangalore, Gurgaon, this, that." We don't have many challenges as a company, but the overall environment is becoming challenging for us.
Ruhul: That was the last question about Astha IT. I want to ask you a few short questions. What are some of the biggest lessons from your journey?
Hasnaeen: The biggest lesson in my life is that if you have a dream and the will, then wait till the end. Don't quit the journey midway. There will be struggles. Clients will leave. You won't find clients. You won't be able to pay salaries. But if you believe in your mission, and if you are a bit spiritual, if you know that there is someone to solve things for you, miraculously, it actually happens. It works. This is the biggest lesson I have learned.
I had no background, to be honest. I don't consider myself qualified. I didn't have any financial backing when I started. Sometimes, when I look at the fact that I'm running such a big organization, I'm amazed at how I'm able to do it. I have absolutely no clue. The only clue that I have is that I wanted to do it, and I wanted to see it through. There's no quitting.
So I would tell you and everyone through Future Startup that whatever you're doing, don't give up out of frustration. If you believe that your product or service is valuable, stay put. You don't even know where the opportunity will come from. You will suddenly see that you've received five million dollars, or a big company is buying your service. What we do is we become frustrated when we hit a wall and then quit.
Ruhul: That is beautifully put. But how do you maintain your sanity and positivity when you're going through challenges? Do you have any framework or tips to maintain personal optimism during dark nights?
Hasnaeen: Yes, I have an awesome framework. I don't know how many people will be able to follow it. This is a practice I've been doing since childhood. I read books. Every night, I go to sleep with a book. I read fiction. I still read children's stories. Now I'm reading Sunil Gangopadhyay's Kakababu at this age.
Second, I watch movies and series. I allocate time for myself. I don't let myself burn out. I entertain myself a lot. I eat a lot—fun eating like burgers, pizza, Chinese, Thai, etc.
And then to counter the eating, I work out. I'm a workout freak. I go to the gym very passionately. Many people ask how I get so much time for all these things. My point is, if you want to do it, it doesn't take that much time—30 minutes to read a book, half an hour to watch a series, one hour for the gym. Two hours for yourself, won't you keep it? It's a choice.
There was a time when I used to work all the time too. Then I saw that I earned the same amount by working half as much. Then I realized there's no point in working so much.
After that, I started allocating 2-3 hours for myself, and it has changed my life. Please, follow this. And I would say, teach others that being workaholic is good, be a workaholic. But keep 2-3 hours a day for yourself when you wouldn't work and instead do something healthy: eat, enjoy entertainment, travel, enjoy yourself, watch movies, exercise, do whatever you enjoy. I do this religiously. Otherwise, I would have gone mad. Because it is a very stressful job.
Ruhul: Since you mentioned it is very stressful, what is the most challenging and rewarding part of being a founder?
Hasnaeen: The biggest challenge is sustaining the company. Nothing is more challenging than that. I felt like giving up many times. I feel overwhelmed all the time. In fact, let me tell you a secret: even today, I feel like giving up.
I'm sure even Mark Zuckerberg must've thought many times, "Screw this, I'm shutting it all down." Sustaining a business is the most challenging thing.
And the reward is the impact. Impact means when I see that 200 people are working. The families of those 200 people are somehow dependent on our company. I'm bringing 20 to 25 crore taka, or more, as revenue to Bangladesh. It feels so good when I think that I've had a small contribution to Bangladesh's advancement. It's a tiny contribution, I know. But then again, it's a contribution, nonetheless. When I think of it, it feels like this is what I'm working for. This is the reason. What else do I need?
The rest is up to Allah. Nothing else matters that much.
Ruhul: What's the best advice you received as an entrepreneur, and what advice would you like to share with others?
Hasnaeen: Each entrepreneurial journey is different. I doubt how much one can learn from another by following their path.
However, many of my seniors have told me to be more metrics-driven in the early days. I was running the company in a very ad-hoc, random style, as I said. But at some point, someone told me to be more metrics-driven. There's no harm in it. At the end of the day, look at the money you're making, leads you're getting, leads lost, leads won, money coming from different leads, etc. This data-driven approach and being rational about it has helped me a lot. I will tell everyone to do this.
Don't be too flashy. I see founders these days, which I find quite unbearable, being too flashy, seeking attention and fame. Recognition is good. Recognition helps. Media helps. Of course, it feels good, and it can be leveraged. If an article gets published about you, you can leverage that to grow. It's all good. But at the end of the day, this is not what success is measured by. Success is measured by whether your company has survived for 10 years or not. Whether you can pay salaries on time or not. Don't talk big if you can't pay salaries.
Ruhul: That's very good advice. I also think that there is a lot of focus on what are called vanity metrics.
Hasnaeen: People eventually grow up when they encounter some challenges and fail a few times.
Ruhul: We talked about books and their importance in your life throughout this conversation. Three books you'd like to recommend to our readers?
Hasnaeen: I'm a literature lover. I love and read mostly literature. One of the best pieces of literature I've read is Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series. It is a science fiction series. I became a different person after reading the books. They changed my perception of reality. It's a grand story on a universal level. What if humans didn't evolve on Earth? What if 20 thousand years ago, humans immigrated and came to Earth, and a culture was built and we have forgotten that our ancestors came from another planet? These kinds of crazy ideas. It is beautiful. Read it, you will like it.
Ruhul: So Foundation series. Anything else?
Hasnaeen: Well, I grew up reading Humayun Ahmed's books. I'm a very big fan of Humayun Ahmed. I read a lot of his books, and I follow his writing style. I won't name any other third book, but I will give you some insight that you can add to your article. Actually, I want to write a book. I've started many stories but haven't been able to finish them due to my busy schedule. But I want to be a published author.
Ruhul: One final question. What do you think about life and death? We try all these different things and then one day we die.
Hasnaeen: I'm a spiritual person. I believe that life as a whole is like a canvas. On that massive, infinite canvas, we are all like individual strings. So if I cut your string from the canvas, it creates a dissonance, an imperfection, a flaw in the canvas. This means each of us has an important role to play. Everyone is important. From the Prime Minister to the lowest ranked person in the republic, we are all equally important because together we are creating one common story. This cosmic consciousness, we have to be positive about this. We have to play our roles and keep working. We shouldn't think too much about what we've gained or not gained in life. That's life to me.
I'm a practicing Muslim. I pray. I believe in Allah, and I also believe that the God of all these different religions is all the same thing. There can be only one God. It can't be two, otherwise, there would've been chaos.
And the thing about death is that it seems to me like going back to the source. In Hinduism, there is this concept of explaining this with words: Paramatma and Atma. Atma is us, which is our soul (Ruh), and Paramatma is God. This is also mentioned in Islam. That Ruh is totally Allah's domain. Only God knows what Ruh is. Ruh comes from Allah. So when we die, we dissolve into the universe. Very metaphysical and philosophical I know, we can talk about this another day, insha'Allah, but such a quasi-quantum thinking works within me.
Ruhul: This is interesting. I have a few more meta questions but I'm keeping that for another day. I think this is a good place to end today's conversation. This has been a very enlightening conversation for me. Thank you so much for being generous with your time and insights.
Hasnaeen: Thank you for having me. I'm very happy. I really enjoyed this session. I wish you and Future Startup all the best. I want to talk with you again and hear about you. We didn't get time for these things today.
