Afshana Rahman Diya is the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of Startise, where she has helped orchestrate the company’s growth from zero to over 6 million users, building a global brand that serves customers in 180+ countries.
In this second and final part of our conversation (part one available here), we explore her approach to marketing, her leadership philosophy, and the inner workings of marketing at a global software company built from Bangladesh. We talk about the operational mechanics behind marketing campaigns that actually work, the mental models that guide her decision-making, and the systems that enable consistent execution across multiple product lines. She talks about her philosophy on team empowerment, the delicate balance between data-driven decision making and human intuition, explains how her team plans campaigns months in advance, the exact productivity systems she uses (down to the apps), and the counterintuitive approach to delegation that has produced uncommonly low turnover rates and excellent results.
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Perhaps most valuable is how Ms. Afshana has avoided the trap that snares many marketers: the over-reliance on metrics at the expense of human connection. Her approach incorporates both quantitative rigor and qualitative understanding, providing a balanced template that's applicable well beyond software marketing.
Whether you're building a marketing organization, managing cross-functional teams, or simply trying to become more intentional about your work, Ms. Afshana's operational insights offer a practical framework you can adapt to your own context, regardless of where in the world you happen to be building.
The interview was recorded in December 2024. You can read part one here.
Ruhul: Thank you so much for taking time again. We covered mostly technical aspects of how to grow users when you're building a global software product from a market like Bangladesh. Today, as we discussed before starting the recording, we're going to focus on how Startise operates as an organization in terms of marketing and what you do as a CMO at the company and how you approach your work, your philosophy about management, marketing, those things. We can start with one contemporary question which is: you've been very busy with Black Friday and Cyber Monday campaigns. You have multiple products across verticals with large user bases. These campaigns are also yearly big campaigns. How do you approach these campaign designs? How do you set the strategy and how does the execution work?
Afshana Rahman Diya: Well, Black Friday is the busiest time of the year. To help people understand, I usually use the analogy of Eid in Bangladesh. Black Friday is similar for the software industry as Eid is for regular businesses in Bangladesh. There is an equivalence here.
In the past, back in 2018/19, we had a relatively set structure for things we do during Black Friday. However, since we've launched multiple products by this time, we now have several products that need different levels and types of attention and campaigns during Black Friday. So we try to plan everything early. Black Friday usually starts at the end of November. Before that, there's a Halloween campaign at the end of October.
We saw over the years that there is a lot of rush during this period, which means if you are trying to improvise, it can sometimes limit your ability to get the full benefit of the event. So we start planning for it in September. We do the same for Halloween. In most cases, we try to at least plan a month ahead.
Now what does our process for these planning look like?
We start with looking at the previous years’ reports: what worked, what didn't work, what did the industry do, what kind of traction the industry got, and lessons learned, etc. Based on all the analysis, we try to plan differently for the current year.
This year we started planning back in September. For Black Friday, we started our campaign after mid-November but everything was ready before that. Since we have multiple products, we are talking about multiple landing pages, different kinds of offers, email campaigns, ad campaigns, social media activities, and so on. All of these things were pretty much ready before November.
When it comes to designing campaigns of this scale, we try to understand what our audience is looking for this year. Are they looking for bundles? Are they looking for upgrades? We try to get a grasp of our market and audience sentiment as we put together our strategies and activities.
We also keep our eyes and ears open during the campaign period and make changes as we receive feedback from the market.
As we launch a campaign, we can understand what is working and what is not after a while. For some products, probably a discount is working better; for some products a bundle of things look more lucrative.
Based on the audience interest, we try to plan the Black Friday campaign and we iterate throughout the period wherever we can.
It's hectic, but it's also one of the most rewarding times for us as a company. The magic is teamwork—how the cross-functional team works together and pulls in everything and executes it. That's the thing that makes all the difference.
Ruhul: This is very interesting. I can extrapolate a couple of points from your answer in terms of designing these campaigns you apply a process that includes: looking back to reflect on what worked and didn't last year, broadly observing industry trends and learning from them, researching strategies used by other players in the industry, and finally, creating a collaborative process where all teams work together. These are excellent takeaways. Could you expand on your experience running large campaigns? Given their hectic nature, heavy workload, and constant potential for both problems and improvements: what are some common mistakes or red flags to watch for when designing campaigns of this scale? Beyond the three practices you mentioned, what additional best practices would you recommend for ensuring excellent execution?
Afshana: For Black Friday or for any campaign, as I mentioned, understanding the audience or what people are seeking is the key.
For example, as you may already know, the global software products industry is not doing very well this year. The growth is slow for most of the companies, partly because of the war and everything in between US elections and all. This offers some context that can inform your campaign strategy: what people are expecting and what they might need more—these are the things that we need to think about when planning for such campaigns.
There are a few other things I would like to mention. During Black Friday, a lot of companies send emails and messages without proper strategy. You will find the same company sending multiple emails and messages to the same customer.
People try to push it too hard during Black Friday or Cyber Monday. Instead of working on segmentation, persona analyzing, and designing a content strategy accordingly, people try to apply brute force, sending multiple same emails to the same users. These things make you look bad to your potential audience.
Instead, if we design the campaign in a personalized manner that resonates better with our audience, it can generate better results.
Ruhul: That makes sense. I think looking desperate is not a good strategy really anytime. We talked about one particular campaign and how you approach that. You work as the CMO of Startise Group, you co-founded a number of products within the group, which also expands your role and makes what you do quite complex. Tell us about what you do as the CMO of the company and how you approach your work. We'll go to how the organization works and those questions next.
Afshana: As CMO of Startise Group, my role is more about driving growth by keeping our user in the heart of everything we do.
Since Startise has a diverse portfolio of products now across WordPress, SaaS, Shopify, my work is dynamic and exciting.
I mean on a given day I am probably planning a new product, preparing a launch plan for that, and at the same time, I am looking at the analytics of our current ones to refine our strategy.
I also play a role as a connector between teams ensuring efforts of our various interdependent teams from product and development team to design team and support are aligned with the company's vision.
Marketing doesn't happen in isolation. Rather, it's all about this collaboration with different teams and producing something to help our customers.
For instance, it is partly about working with the product team and helping them understand what we are building, why we are building it, what features we should develop, and so on.
Marketing team is always researching possible things that we should do: features that have market demand, features our audience is interested in, and we discuss these findings with the product team.
If I talk about our approach, I would say my whole approach is rooted in experimentation. Whether we are launching a product or a campaign, we are always running A/B tests. We are always testing and looking to find better approaches. I mean there is no guide that you can do this and you will do better. You have to test, learn from it, and from that, you will be able to scale. Test, learn, and scale.
I think marketing is not about strategies and tools all the time. It's more about people. We try to build a strong collaborative culture within and among teams so we get inputs from all the teams, experiment, learn and bring out the best things.
I think marketing is not about selling; it is about connecting with people, storytelling, and ultimately making differences for our end user. At the end of the day, I mean, it's the people who are using the product.
Ruhul: It is an interesting way to look at marketing. Particularly, the last point you mentioned about connecting with people. Marketing has become too sales-focused over the last five-ten years. The rise of social media and the extraordinary weight people now put on data, numbers, and those things have played a role in this change. Of course, data, numbers are important and useful. However, it feels this obsession with data has also eroded focus from long-term brand building, long-term connection building, and long-term organizational purpose of marketing. In the past, people used to think about how we could build a brand and trust in the market that would eventually reduce our CAC, reduce our marketing spend on other channels because people resonate with our brand and purchasing decisions become easier for them and those kinds of things. People probably still think about these things but marketing has become quite soulless. To that end, what you mentioned is very fascinating. I would like to ask you about your personal approach to work.
As you mentioned, one of your core tasks is ensuring cross-departmental collaboration because you need to work with all these different teams. It's a complex workload. To that end, how do you operate on a daily basis? How do you stay productive and ensure results because results for you are contingent on effective collaboration of a lot of different departments?
Afshana: I have two principles when it comes to this productivity and all. One is clarity, another is adaptability. I believe that having a clear sense of your priority is the very core of being productive. In most cases, we have multiple things to do every day. So prioritizing, which needs to be done first, is one of the keys to productivity.
In general, at the start of the day, I try to sort out one core goal: one thing that I need to achieve or finish today that will have a bigger impact.
That helps me to focus on a particular thing. Then I spend just 5 to 10 minutes to list down other things that I have to do. I'm a big fan of checklists. At the same time, I know that plans can change, especially if you're talking about companies in our fast-paced industry where everything is changing all the time. So adaptability is important.
I try to stay organized and usually plan ahead with a few backup options, just to be ready for the unexpected.
I also maintain a mindset that we have to adapt to new things. Unexpected challenges can come up and we should have room for maneuver and change. One best approach to tackle this kind of uncertainty is giving everyone space to operate so we can respond to and manage things.
I think productivity is more about managing energy than managing time. For me, if I'm energetic and my team is energetic, we can do more.
I try to balance between deep work, collaboration and rest. Since I manage multiple teams, I work in focus blocks of time. I have 40-30 minutes to respond to emails. I have a 1 hour 30 minute block for meetings and another hour when I do deep work. Professionally, I operate with a collaborative spirit. Most of our team members know which time is for the meetings and plan accordingly. We try to plan everything ahead.
Finally, we never stop learning. Attending different conferences around the world, meeting with leaders from different companies and learning from them are some of the things that have helped me to grow personally and professionally. I share these learnings with my team so that they can also operate at their best.
Ruhul: This is very useful. You've put together some of the very effective approaches to not only operating personally but also running organizations at a time when things are changing all the time fast. Keeping an experimental mindset, focus and deep work, making lists, these are very useful strategies. Focus is something I also struggle with a lot. I tried block time. I have Pomodoro set up. I use multiple website blocker extensions and still I struggle with focus. These are very useful ideas.
Afshana: For productivity, I mostly suggest one thing, which applies to many Bangladeshis, which I believe will certainly make them more productive: stop scrolling. Make sure you don’t scroll anything—Facebook, Instagram or YouTube.
I have learned this hard way. I don't scroll anymore. If you can adopt this habit, it would save you a ton of time. Scrolling is a pure time killer. Before you know it, you would see a meaningful amount of time is gone.
But doing it is not easy. I had to train and had to be extremely hard on myself. I have created some hacks where I follow certain topics and I only check them. Apart from that, I don't browse any sites.
Ruhul: Now that's a very useful suggestion. I was watching this series called Dune Prophecy. The new one. There are these magician women, Bene Gesserit. They have this power to control other people’s mind with voice. They tell something and people kind of go hypnotic and do as they command. I think they use some sort of hypnotic power. After watching this, I was discussing with my wife that many modern social technologies—social media, YouTube, mobile phones, these devices and platforms—are built with hypnotic abilities to control our behavior and mind. We go to Facebook with a particular task, say to send a message to someone and I go there, I forget that task; instead, I start scrolling and an hour goes by without noticing it. So if you can really control that behavior, bring that awareness, I'm not going to scroll, that solves a lot of problems.
I wanted to ask another question on your approach regarding giving people space so that they can operate. In our culture, delegation, empowering other people, avoiding micromanagement—these are still not widely practiced ideas. Can you expand on how you give people space? How do you overcome the anxiety that another person might make a mistake, or create some challenges and master the confidence that I can let them operate independently?
Afshana: As I mentioned earlier, we couldn't hire people with a lot of experience in some of the roles; rather we hire freshers and train them on our culture and philosophy among other things, which has helped us to have the benefit that they understand our culture. And this alignment makes this delegation feasible. It can be difficult if you have people coming from different cultures with different mindsets and values.
Secondly, we are lucky that we have an excellent retention rate where most of our team members have been working with us for years. Giving people space and ownership of their work helps both ways. It improves satisfaction at work for people. It also makes us a much more effective organization. We give our team members access to everything.
For example, we start by giving our junior team members small roles, but we encourage and motivate them to take full responsibility for that small task.
Gradually, they learn to take over bigger roles, bigger campaigns, and bigger responsibilities. We allow them to think their way, and present their approach. A team lead or someone senior usually guides them in the early days but the person operates with full responsibility and authority. When they go through this, people get used to taking the lead, owning the product and when you own something, you perform differently.
Ruhul: I think this is a very effective approach to scaling people. You train up a fresher and gradually rely on them for small tasks and then gradually build that person to a point where you let them take on even big projects. This is an interesting and useful framework for any organization looking to scale people.
Afshana: If you don’t empower people, you can get the job done by them for some time, but you will always have to micromanage. However, if you allow people to do it their way, if you give them some responsibility and authority, people feel motivated and empowered.
When I give someone responsibility and authority, perhaps a junior and it is some small task, I tell him this is your task, you are responsible for it and you do it in your own way. Talk to people, take help, and do whatever you need to do, but it is your responsibility. Seniors do help, but the junior thinks that everyone is relying on me for this project, so I have to work. This sense of responsibility helps the person perform well and grow.
Ruhul: Absolutely. Responsibility and authority, these are critical for people to grow up. Coming back to Startise marketing operations, please tell us about how marketing operations work at Startise. You have many different products, many different teams, and you are constantly experimenting with new ideas, talk about the structure of your marketing team. How big is the team and what does the operation look like? How do you operate as a team? Anything that's interesting?
Afshana: We have around 30-plus people in the team. These are cross-functional teams which include content writers, communications executives, copy writers, creative designers, motion designers, etc. This structure enables collaboration and ensures that marketing initiatives are delivered effectively.
We try to plan everything at least a month ahead, one of the simple strategies that allow us to operate multiple products relatively smoothly.
Every year, we do a growth week which takes place at the end of the year where we evaluate our annual performance, take account of what worked and what didn't, and we plan for the next year. These are comprehensive plans that cover everything from development, marketing, design, and other important operational aspects.
Ruhul: This planning ahead should be very useful. Can you expand on what this planning process looks like?
Afshana: It varies from product to product. For a new product, probably we already have a roadmap. We are developing it month by month in features, in marketing activities, contents, SEO, etc. We usually have a list of things that we want to do and goals that we want to reach.
Most of the cases, these plans are specific and number-oriented instead of just keeping things vague. I mean setting a clear and measurable goal is more effective. This might sound very basic, but I see a lot of businesses actually overlook this.
Ruhul: I can relate. Planning-wise, we did not have a structured approach and we didn’t have goals, particularly metrics that we are tracking. We changed that last year, we put together a list of goals and metrics and every week we track them. It has changed the way we run the organization. Going back to running a multi-product global marketing operation. What are some of the common challenges of running such an operation?
Afshana: There are many challenges. The most critical and most common one is consistency. People struggle to maintain consistency. If you are building a product or offering a product, you have to consistently release updates and improvements. You have to answer customer queries and solve their problems consistently. This is something people often struggle with.
The second mistake is overlooking what your end users are looking for and what their goals are. You shouldn’t build or communicate what you want, you should start with understanding your users and calibrate all your actions accordingly.
Ruhul: What would be some key principles/rules for effectively managing a multi-product marketing operation that delivers results?
Afshana: All great execution depends on teams. You should understand your team members, who is good at what, and allocate resources properly. Then comes the coordination and collaboration across teams. When you are talking about multiple products, it means you have different teams working on different aspects of your operations and they are interdependent. A smooth and effective collaborative environment is indispensable in this setting to produce good results. Unless teams are working together well, things will stall and progress will suffer.
Second, prioritize a user-centric approach across all products. Understand your user deeply and base every other decision on that understanding. The rest should follow.
Finally, use data to make informed decisions. Set measurable goals. State clear KPIs so that you can measure the outcome. Track everything. At the same time, blend the power of data with the power of intuition and your understanding.
Ruhul: The next question I want to ask is about designing a marketing organization that delivers. We've discussed tactical lessons about growing users, but I'd like to focus specifically on how your team functioned effectively. What organizational principles enabled your marketing team to execute those technical strategies successfully? Because essentially, in order to execute your tactical strategies, you need to have your organization function well. How would you describe the organizational strengths that powered Startise's marketing success? While we can extrapolate ideas like building a collaborative organization and maintaining an experimental mindset from our previous conversation, what specific lessons would you distill from Startise's journey—growing from one product with zero users to where you are today? What core principles guided you in building a marketing and growth operation that consistently delivered results and created campaigns that helped scale from zero to 6 million users? Lessons in running a marketing and growth operation that delivers results, that helps you to create campaigns and strategies that can help you to grow from, say, zero to 6 million.
Afshana: Data-driven decision-making but having empathy. Data will indicate many things, but you also have to use intuition. You shouldn't rely on data alone.
Learn to say no. As your product/company grows, you will get a lot of opportunities. It can be overwhelming and tempting. But you have to be judicious. You have to guard your focus. Focus is your greatest asset.
Collaborate and build partnerships with people and companies, with your users and your team members. Without partnership and collaboration, you cannot grow; a multinational company, for sure, cannot grow.
Stay humble but at the same time, stay hungry. No matter how successful you are, you shouldn’t rest on your achievement because tomorrow is a new day. Your product might be number one today, but that shouldn’t make you complacent. But you have to keep innovating, keep improving. You have to keep challenging yourself.
Ruhul: I was reading this article. In fact, we linked that article in our today's newsletter called divine discontent. You are doing great, you are doing well, but still people who do really well or now in your case organizations that really do well have this discontent that there is more that we can do, we can do even better.
Afshana: In many cases when people are doing well, they take it for granted. They brag about it. If you take something for granted, there are chances that you will lax in your effort.
In the success of Essential Addons and our other products, I believe that this is a combination of teamwork and consistency. If we compare with any of our competitors, we have been more consistent than anyone else for sure. We tried to keep innovating from the very beginning, and still, when we are larger than everyone in our vertical, we are trying to do more. This is one trait that will always save you.
Ruhul: This is a trait I think people should try to cultivate because when things are going good, we get complacent. It creates a "good is the enemy of great" type situation and when things start deteriorating quickly, it catches us off guard. We have pretty much covered the organization part of how marketing works at Startise. Of course, there is room for digging deeper, but I think we can move forward. You talked about in our first conversation that marketing is about building connections. We live in a world today which is extremely data-obsessed and measurement-obsessed. People increasingly discard ideas like intuition, connection even, building for the long term when it comes to marketing. Can you expand on this idea of building connections? What do you mean by that? How do you balance that with the idea of data and the measurement obsession that we have today? And finally, how do you build these connections?
Afshana: Data is important. Data is critical, but it's not everything. Data usually shows us what and how.
I believe a blend of both is the best way to go. For example, data might show us a high bounce rate. But my intuition can guide me how to tweak the messaging or change the design to make it more user-friendly to reduce the bounce rate instead of just putting it down. That balance between data and intuition which you will have with experience and over the time, is very useful.
We keep saying that marketing is all about strategy and tools. But I believe that marketing is as much about human connection as much as it is about strategy and tools. A lot of the time, as we obsess over data, we forget about the people we are trying to reach. Instead of the people, we put more importance on strategy and tools.
I believe that we need to be more mindful of the audience. I keep saying the same thing, focus on the audience, what they want, what they need, and that's how you stay connected with them.
Ruhul: Marketing in a way is a skill for an organization. It is the same for professionals as well. For organizations, as we talked about not taking success for granted, as you mentioned, stay humble and keep trying, there is always room for improvement. From that perspective, how can organizations keep getting better at marketing? By extension of that, how can marketing professionals get better at what they do?
Afshana: It actually depends. For a startup or for an organization like ours or for larger organizations with thousand employees and a marketing team with 200 people, the approaches will be different, right?.
In general, for any organization to get better at marketing, one thing that seems universal is that you should start with the customer, understand the audience, and act accordingly.
Second, stay focused with a clear USP. I mean, if you cannot articulate why your product or service matters for the audience, they cannot understand your product. So messaging should be clear with proper value propositions.
Invest in data and insight to understand your market better.
Most of the companies these days, especially if you are looking at the companies from Europe or North America, are focusing on personalization, which I think we still lack in South Asian nations. We try to do the same thing for everyone. That needs to change if you want to do better marketing and also collaborate with others.
Test and learn. Run continuous experiments and create a recursive model to capture your learning and apply them.
Another important idea for Bangladeshi marketers and founders is community building, which actually works great for a global audience. Investing in community building and advocacy are excellent strategies to leverage your branding.
These are some ideas for organizations to improve their marketing efforts.
For marketers, again, be obsessed with your audience. Marketing is all about people, not product, not service. So understanding your audience is the foundation for everything. If you are obsessed with what your audience wants, you will have more ideas in your strategy than you can implement.
Finally, test everything, try everything, but don't assume anything. Do a lot of A/B testing. Experiment with different kinds of marketing campaigns to email subject lines to website CTA buttons and so on. Keep testing multiple things; you will figure out which works best.
If you are a marketer, if you want to do better at marketing, the first thing you need to know is that you have to be a lifelong learner. You have to constantly learn about things, understand the business side as well as the audience's thought process.
You have to learn to stay curious. At the same time, you have to learn to take feedback. I mean growth comes from constructive criticism and also learning from others'. Unless you talk to people, take feedback or take mentorship from seniors, there is no way you can go very far.
We have a cultural challenge when it comes to feedback in Bangladesh. We can't stomach difficult feedback. It is very difficult to make people understand that you can't improve without feedback. When I get feedback, that's when I get a chance to improve. People get easily offended when they are given critical feedback which in fact can help them improve. In my team, the people who take feedback with a positive spirit, they do better and grow faster in their career.
Ruhul: It's so much easier to improve when another person is pointing out all your limitations in a way that is useful. It's like someone else is doing research for me on how to grow. You have worked for companies, worked at agencies, and then now running a marketing operation where you build and sell products to a global audience. What are some of the biggest career lessons from your journey? \
Afshana: I already mentioned about the lesson in terms of organization. In general I would say that, as I mentioned, everything or every success comes from consistency. So whether it's marketing or life, whatever, screwing up every day, doing the work that matters—that's one thing that I have learned. Without consistency you cannot do anything good.
Another thing is empathy, understanding what people need. That can be when we are talking about marketing a product or we are talking about managing our team, we are talking about managing our family. Empathy is the key. You have to understand people, what they want, and then create deeper connections which will have a long-lasting impact.
Finally, take mistakes positively. Whenever you take your mistakes positively and you’ll try to improve—I mean if you are willing to learn, it will be a lot easier to get to greater heights.
Ruhul: These are very critical topics and also a little uncomfortable because it's not easy to admit our limitations. You are a reader. Let's talk about books and by extension, how do you approach learning and growth. Tell us about your favorite books, books that you would like our readers to check out and also how you approach personal growth and learning.
Afshana: For book recommendation, one of the books I regularly suggest is Outliers. Atomic Habits by James Clear is a very good one. I would also like to recommend The Million-Dollar Weekend by Noah Kagan.
Ruhul: How do you approach learning and personal growth? I find you very intentional in terms of how you approach your work, say, managing your focus and those kinds of questions. Do you use any specific software or what tools do you use?
Afshana: Todoist is my go-to app. I use the Todoist app and Mac extension. For extensive stuff, I use Trello. It is just for blocking times. Everything is connected with Google Calendar. From Todoist to Trello and everything. So looking at my Google Calendar provides me with a quite good overview of my various tasks and commitments.
I also use "If This Then That" now. It is an app where you can connect different apps together and pull triggers based on your requirement. It's more like Zapier. I find it very useful.
Ruhul: Do you have any weekly cleaning or review kind of thing because sometimes it gets too heavy after a while.
Afshana: I do this every morning and before bed in the evening, which is a daily routine. I organize what is done and cross off the ones that are done and note down if something new comes up. I do this daily in the morning and at the end of the work day.
I also do this once every week, usually on every Saturday when I plan the week. These things take time and overtime, you create a structure that fits your life well. It takes multiple iterations by the time you find a way that works for you. When you keep working on a system and improve it as you go, it improves and gets better.
Ruhul: We are towards the end of our conversation. One final question: how do you think about life? We try a lot of things in life and then one day we will not be here. How do you think about life in the context of death and that this journey of ours will eventually come to an end?
Afshana: I didn't think about these things much until this last September when I lost my mother-in-law. I became very close with her within these two years. She loved me so much.
I never actually lost anyone so close before this. So I never had this feeling of losing someone permanently, which actually gave me a lot of thought about life and death. I think what matters is not how long you live but how deeply you connect with others and how you contribute to the world.
This is one thing I realized after her death. She was so connected with everyone and everyone loved her with a full heart. I think we need to live intentionally. Death is uncertain but ultimately a reminder that we need to understand what we want to do and that we should focus on the things that make us happy. I think legacy is not about what you have built and what you have achieved, it's about the impact that you leave on others when you are not here.
Ruhul: That's so profound and powerful. Often in the midst of all the small things of living, we miss the most important aspects of life that at the end of the day it's about how people are going to remember us. The way you remember your mother-in-law I think anybody would really give their life for that kind of remembrance. It's the only worthwhile thing to pursue.
Afshana: That actually just happened because of how she treated me. She was able to make me feel for her that deeply. That's the lesson.
Ruhul: I think this is a perfect place to end today's conversation. Thank you so much again for taking the time. I can't appreciate it enough.
Afshana: Thank you so much for your time as well.
